Abortion

[purpurn]

Purpurn, I can understand that for your case you would a condom. I am not against condoms, and I believe I have said earlier that in some occasions there may be a good reason for it.

However, if you would get pregnant, I don't think abortion would be the right thing, unless most likely both of you might die. :/

I actually use an implant and we use condoms also - we're trying doubly sure that pregnancy doesn't happen. I can understand that it is upsetting when people who don't try any sort of prevention for pregnancy end up getting abortions. The only way to help relieve that is by education. I have had other partners (in the past) before I met my husband and it was never an issue to use birth control with them. I had a lot of education on the subject and was never denied access to information about sex, mostly in part cause my mother was a nurse.

We have an atmosphere that sex is shameful here in America. It is dirty and it is wrong and the idea still permeates that you shouldn't have sex till you get married, but the fact is that people (including teens) will probably at some point want to have sex for their own reasons with another person. It would be far better to teach people as much about how their bodies work and about birth control (and certain effects of birth control) and Plan B and make it something that is just natural and no more icky than breathing or crying. Young women need to feel in control of their lives and we aren't educating them enough to feel that way - There was a poll taken from teens about carrying condoms with them. For guys, generally it's an okay thing to do. When asked if a young girl has one on her whenever, people described that young woman as a slut or a whore instead of an intelligent woman in control of her future and body. (cause not all the guys said they would carry condoms even though they would be open to having sex)

There are also well believed myths surrounding pregnancy and sex like the one that dazzi pointed out in her post, " time it to when the female has just finished her menstrual period, the chances of becoming pregnant are almost zero." This way of thinking is wrong even though it is commonly accepted as a fact. (my husband even believed this myth when we first met...) The only way we can get rid of this type of incorrect thinking is by better education on the subject.

Now, will this eliminate abortions? probably not - it is a medical procedure and should be used in severe cases, but I think it will prevent it from being used as a "plan B" when there are many things that could have been learned to help prevent pregnancy in the first place.

-Purn

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I think that in that education should also be told that it's better not to have sex before marriage. Another reason, besides the problems you may get of this, is that when you marry and bot of you are virgin it's a nice thing to know. It's another way of saying that you'll be faithful to him/her.

However Purpurn, there is most definitely a time that you have less chance to get pregnant. But of course there'll probably never be a total "no-chance".

 

[purpurn]

I think that in that education should also be told that it's better not to have sex before marriage. Another reason, besides the problems you may get of this, is that when you marry and bot of you are virgin it's a nice thing to know. It's another way of saying that you'll be faithful to him/her.

However Purpurn, there is most definitely a time that you have less chance to get pregnant. But of course there'll probably never be a total "no-chance".

Well, everyone's body is different from everyone else - and yes there are probable times where you are less likely to get pregnant, however if you are advocating that people try as little as possible to get pregnant are you really going to give them a set time frame of when it is better or not? Making wide sweeping claims like "right after you've had your period you are less likely to become pregnant" is a horrible disservice to people. It is giving them false information.

Also, what is virginity really worth? I love my husband, and he loves me. We are totally devoted to one another. I had other partners before I met him, as well as he had sort of other partners too - but he doesn't love me less because I wasn't a virgin. He loves me for the person that I am, not for who I have or have not slept with. Plus, I am in tune with my body and things that I like and don't like because in a way I've had practice, and yes we slept together before we got married, but we've always been smart about it.

I find it sad when couples who get married virgins have depressing sexual lives together. They feel like they can't talk to their own partner about it cause they don't feel comfortable about the subject in the first place or don't want to hurt the other persons feelings. There are some couples that get married (I've seen living in Utah the state of getting hitched as fast as you can) and are just so unhappy about it and find that they don't love or appreciate their partner cause their sexual lives aren't fulfilling or enjoyable.

I feel like any other aspect of a persons personality, sex should be explored. It should become something that you enjoy and find pleasure in, cause if you aren't then there is something wrong with how it's happening and it should be adjusted. It can be a wonderful thing when you find another person who wants to experience pleasure with you and respect you and your body and your personal likes and dislikes. How will you know unless you try it? There are plenty of people out there that seem nice enough in certain situations, but are completely different when you get them home and alone. I've been with people who were great conversationalists, but terrible kissers.... it's sort of the same idea.

I'm pro-choice, but pro-choice with a strong emphasis on needing better education, because like my husband and I who don't want children (and a few other young couples we know) - even married couples need to be equipped with knowledge before they get married to know how to plan their families when they are ready or not to have children.

 

[dazzilitchigirl]

I actually use an implant and we use condoms also - we're trying doubly sure that pregnancy doesn't happen. I can understand that it is upsetting when people who don't try any sort of prevention for pregnancy end up getting abortions. The only way to help relieve that is by education. I have had other partners (in the past) before I met my husband and it was never an issue to use birth control with them. I had a lot of education on the subject and was never denied access to information about sex, mostly in part cause my mother was a nurse.

We have an atmosphere that sex is shameful here in America. It is dirty and it is wrong and the idea still permeates that you shouldn't have sex till you get married, but the fact is that people (including teens) will probably at some point want to have sex for their own reasons with another person. It would be far better to teach people as much about how their bodies work and about birth control (and certain effects of birth control) and Plan B and make it something that is just natural and no more icky than breathing or crying. Young women need to feel in control of their lives and we aren't educating them enough to feel that way - There was a poll taken from teens about carrying condoms with them. For guys, generally it's an okay thing to do. When asked if a young girl has one on her whenever, people described that young woman as a slut or a whore instead of an intelligent woman in control of her future and body. (cause not all the guys said they would carry condoms even though they would be open to having sex)

There are also well believed myths surrounding pregnancy and sex like the one that dazzi pointed out in her post, " time it to when the female has just finished her menstrual period, the chances of becoming pregnant are almost zero." This way of thinking is wrong even though it is commonly accepted as a fact. (my husband even believed this myth when we first met...) The only way we can get rid of this type of incorrect thinking is by better education on the subject.

Now, will this eliminate abortions? probably not - it is a medical procedure and should be used in severe cases, but I think it will prevent it from being used as a "plan B" when there are many things that could have been learned to help prevent pregnancy in the first place.

-Purn

Sorry about getting something wrong, I've only just done the first part of sex education at school, although my parents told me about it before. Apparently we do more of it in Year 9 (8th grade), since none of us Year 7s are likely to have sex before then. But I do think we should do the whole thing now. There's no harm in it and I don't see why it's considered "inappropriate".

I don't think people should need to carry a condom with them. I know almost nothing about things like this, but I know that people don't come up to you on the street and ask to have sex (or if they do, I've never seen it happen). You should only have sex if other aspects of the relationship have already developed - the couple feel they can trust each other and have spent a reasonable amount of time together.

 

[purpurn]

Sorry about getting something wrong, I've only just done the first part of sex education at school, although my parents told me about it before. Apparently we do more of it in Year 9 (8th grade), since none of us Year 7s are likely to have sex before then. But I do think we should do the whole thing now. There's no harm in it and I don't see why it's considered "inappropriate".

I don't think people should need to carry a condom with them. I know almost nothing about things like this, but I know that people don't come up to you on the street and ask to have sex (or if they do, I've never seen it happen). You should only have sex if other aspects of the relationship have already developed - the couple feel they can trust each other and have spent a reasonable amount of time together.

It's not really bad to get something wrong, but you'll only know better by getting educated Which it sounds like you are (eventually) which is a good thing! And what you said is just a well believed myth - there are a lot of people all over the world who believe in what you said too. The schools have to balance out what they feel is the right amount of information at the right time for both teachers and families in the school system. You seem pretty mature so it might not be too much for you to take in, but some other students might not be as mature yet and may need a while to absorb some of the info so far.

And about carrying a condom - you might be in a relationship with someone but you might not know exactly when that "right time" is. So it would be better to be prepared than sorry for having poor judgement. It's like having an emergency bag packed with food and water in case you need to leave your house in a storm or earthquake - you'd rather have those items tucked away on hand somewhere than not at all when you need them. Or like a flu shot - you get a shot to prevent the flu. Again, it's the preparedness for when that time comes to have education on it, and protection rather than just jumping into it head first and having an unwanted pregnancy which could lead to an abortion (which honestly would be terrible).

-Purn

 

[WhiteClaw84]

Since I'm on my phone so this will be pretty short and sweet. I'm a Christian. I don't believe in abortion being a right choice unless the mother is in danger and the pregnancy will not be viable. I do agree with purpurn that our biggest problem is education. When it comes to important subjects like this, it is either education or communication that is the problem. I believe %100 in early education, encouraging the use of birth control, condoms, abstinence when possible etc... I do agree that one should remain a virgin until marriage as intimacy at a sexual level is something sacred, a beautiful gift from God meant to be shared with the one person you have dedicated your life to. However, things happen and we're sinful creatures and not everyone is a virgin before marriage. I have a son and I understand that some day he will face all kinds of temptations and just because I believe he should hold off on sex till marriage doesn't mean I'm going to let him blindly out into the world without protection or understanding because as I said before we're all sinful and we make mistakes. I will make sure he is well educated and prepared so hopefully, he never has to face teen pregnancy. And if for some reason he really screws up because he's human, I will be there to support him and the woman involved and provide the best I can do that baby can have a life. We are raising him to be a respectful, loving, independent, smart and Godly boy (well he's still a baby at 11 months but already acts like a three year old) but kids are kids and I can't control and worry about every aspect of his life or I'll suffocate him under the weight of my control. All I can do is be there for him always and educate him on the matter as much as possible and not judge him when he asks questions

 

[WhiteClaw84]

Oops double post. Sorry if anything looks weird...I'm on my phone.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Congratulations wit your son(I'm pretty late, I know). A child is a blessing of God.

I am also of the opinion that you tell your child, before the age that he even has certain desires, about how hard it can be to get over certain mistakes, it can help a great deal. If you can avoid that your child even has to face certain problems, how awesome can't that be?

On the subject now, I'm unsure actually if I should try to you people, who aren't christian, to say no agains abortion. I may give you good reasons, but I'm pretty sure that some other smoothtalker can say another good sounding reason why well to do it. The thing is everybody has their own set of morals/standards. It is based on what they think is right, and many people may have a wrong idea about something.

The thing is that the bible gives you standards. Once you have the Bible as basis of your morals it is much easier to understand why certain things are wrong. But the thing is you have to become a Christian for that.

A good reason why I think you should people should convert to christianity is that I'm convinced that if you dissobey the law of God, you will end up having certain problems, no matter if you are not a Christian. And that is one of the reasons why I believe that Christianity is the true way to life.

For me it isn't hard to understand the logic behind each law. And once you become a true Christian your eyes open and you start seeing the reasons why things are how they are.

 

[purpurn]

Congratulations wit your son(I'm pretty late, I know). A child is a blessing of God.

I am also of the opinion that you tell your child, before the age that he even has certain desires, about how hard it can be to get over certain mistakes, it can help a great deal. If you can avoid that your child even has to face certain problems, how awesome can't that be?

On the subject now, I'm unsure actually if I should try to you people, who aren't christian, to say no agains abortion. I may give you good reasons, but I'm pretty sure that some other smoothtalker can say another good sounding reason why well to do it. The thing is everybody has their own set of morals/standards. It is based on what they think is right, and many people may have a wrong idea about something.

The thing is that the bible gives you standards. Once you have the Bible as basis of your morals it is much easier to understand why certain things are wrong. But the thing is you have to become a Christian for that.

A good reason why I think you should people should convert to christianity is that I'm convinced that if you dissobey the law of God, you will end up having certain problems, no matter if you are not a Christian. And that is one of the reasons why I believe that Christianity is the true way to life.

For me it isn't hard to understand the logic behind each law. And once you become a true Christian your eyes open and you start seeing the reasons why things are how they are.

Honestly, I am Catholic. I personally feel that yes - you should have kids after you get married. I also don't believe in creationism just because the bible says it was so. To be truthful, the bible has some great points about how to be a good person, but it can also be harmful in some ways. We know for a fact that preaching abstinence only does not work. People will get curious and try things even if they don't know how they work or what will happen. OR conversely, you will get people who are so completely shy and unable to even speak about sex that it will cause problems for them in the long term if they choose to get into a relationship. (I have seen personally couples that have an issue like this... it is really very sad)

What you said about the bible to me, essentially sounded like, "the bible tells me so I don't have to think." But just like I would be absolutely appalled at you telling me what to do with my body and condition, I will not tell you that you should be ashamed to trust in what the bible tells you (because that is your personal right to decide what is best to believe in).

But this isn't a conversation about getting converts to "Christianity" - this is a conversation about abortion (and sort of sexual education).

I have made points to this - that I do not like abortion, but I also don't like surgery either, but they are both medical procedures and have a place and a time when they are needed. Do I think it's a good thing that people use it as a back up for a lack of careful sexual activity? No, but the only way to fix that is by better education. Do I think we should abolish abortion? No, because it is a medical procedure and I feel even that doctors that deny that procedure to patients who are dying and need that service are hypocrites and should have their medical license revoked.

I do feel that people should plan for children (or no children) and work to keep that plan. Education, and easily accessed information and services (clinics for sexual education and easy access to birth control) would be a help to peoples planning.

So, I do not like abortion, but I am still pro-choice.

-Purn

 

[Ashley Montanae]

For a Christian perspective on the fallacies of "abstinence only" teaching -

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I mentioned Christianity, since I think it may be the only doorway to truly give up abortion. Else, people might be still persuaded to fall back.

When I mention abortion, I'm not talking about cases where both mother and child will die, but mainly when the mother does not want her child.

If I'm not mistaken, cases where the child can cause a threat to his mother and itself, does not require abortion to be allowed, to be able to make an operation to attempt to save one(or both). That's Pro-life if you think about it by the way(attempting to save the most they can).

 

[Ashley Montanae]

I mentioned Christianity, since I think it may be the only doorway to truly give up abortion. Else, people might be still persuaded to fall back.

This is doubting the case for basic morality & conviction - this is not to say that people who see no wrong with abortion are immoral (not within themselves), but, there is a sense of right and wrong outside of religion that people may and do adopt that can tell them abortion is wrong. Also, Christians "fall back" (I've done more than my share fair); what's our excuse?

 

[x/C.h.e.l.l.e-<3]

I would never abort unless there was a major health risk to me and the baby, if it was a high risk pregnancy where i'd end up dying i'd abort it because if I were dead,I wouldn't be able to have more kids in the future.

But if I were healthy, I'd keep the child.

Sometimes women choose abortion because its best for them and the baby,

Losing a baby isn't easy. Be it from SIDS, stillbirth, Abortion, Late-term miscarriage or in a more personal case [self experience] Early Miscarriage &lt;/3

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

This is doubting the case for basic morality &amp; conviction - this is not to say that people who see no wrong with abortion are immoral (not within themselves), but, there is a sense of right and wrong outside of religion that people may and do adopt that can tell them abortion is wrong. Also, Christians "fall back" (I've done more than my share fair); what's our excuse?

The thing is people's morals are different. And not everybody's morals are correct. So they're not standing on something solid, while for me the Bible is a solid ground. I think you first need a solid ground before you can really change definite.

Yes, it is true. Christians do fall back. And many people are convinced "Once saved, always saved", but that's total nonsense of course. Why do they fall back? People lose faith and harden their heart. For example, when Moses took with him the Hebrews out of Egypt. But very many times, the Hebrews fell back, and lost faith(The golden calf, for example), even after all those signs God gave.

 

[Izzyd07]

While I'd never have an abortion myself and I do struggle with the moral implications of it I think it should ultimately be the mother's choice.

 

[Ashley Montanae]

The thing is people's morals are different.

Yep.

And not everybody's morals are correct.

Says whom? That's the wonderful thing about morals - they're personal. Someone may be immoral to you, but, no within themselves. You don't get to say which morals are right and which morals are wrong.

For instance, a serial killer that went out and intentionally killed people doesn't find murder immoral. Sure, you might, but, it doesn't make their morals wrong, it just makes them something that most of society is adverse to.

"Wrong" (or the implication of an action being wrong) is a very strong sentiment.

So they're not standing on something solid, while for me the Bible is a solid ground. I think you first need a solid ground before you can really change definite.

You can't mix opinion with statements meant to be factual. "For me", "I think" and definite realities (e.g. "they're not standing on something solid") cannot be used in the same breath.

Also, the Bible isn't "solid ground" for someone that doesn't even believe in the Christian God. I think you're confusing a sense of morality and a sense of morality as derived from dogma - there's a difference.

Yes, it is true. Christians do fall back. And many people are convinced "Once saved, always saved", but that's total nonsense of course.

You have quite the way with words, Mr. Bauwens. I always find something new to want to debate you about every time you post. However, we'll remain PC and civil on this topic for the time being.

 

[dazzilitchigirl]

Yep.

Says whom? That's the wonderful thing about morals - they're personal. Someone may be immoral to you, but, no within themselves. You don't get to say which morals are right and which morals are wrong.

For instance, a serial killer that went out and intentionally killed people doesn't find murder immoral. Sure, you might, but, it doesn't make their morals wrong, it just makes them something that most of society is adverse to.

"Wrong" (or the implication of an action being wrong) is a very strong sentiment.

You can't mix opinion with statements meant to be factual. "For me", "I think" and definite realities (e.g. "they're not standing on something solid") cannot be used in the same breath.

Also, the Bible isn't "solid ground" for someone that doesn't even believe in the Christian God. I think you're confusing a sense of morality and a sense of morality as derived from dogma - there's a difference.

You have quite the way with words, Mr. Bauwens. I always find something new to want to debate you about every time you post. However, we'll remain PC and civil on this topic for the time being.

I agree. Not everyone has any "solid ground" apart from their morals, too. I'm an atheist so I have no religious book to rely on. What I rely on for a "solid ground" is the law, how I've been raised and my own morals. The law is what the government thinks. I've been raised the way my parents think I should have been. My own morals are, of course, what I think. However, I don't know any laws about abortion and my parents never told me about it (or any of the other things I post about in this forum section). That means I've based my opinion entirely on what I know from this topic - but it's still an opinion as good as everyone else's. It's not a fact. The only fact I need to participate here is what abortion is.

 

[Eternal Mametchi Fan]

I fully support it.

For one thing, the population of humans on planet Earth is getting out of hand so if a child doesn't have to exist, abort it~

Another thing, if the child doesn't get aborted, they're likely to live an awful life anyway and who knows, their depression could cause them to become a murderer or something.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I agree. Not everyone has any "solid ground" apart from their morals, too. I'm an atheist so I have no religious book to rely on. What I rely on for a "solid ground" is the law, how I've been raised and my own morals. The law is what the government thinks. I've been raised the way my parents think I should have been. My own morals are, of course, what I think. However, I don't know any laws about abortion and my parents never told me about it (or any of the other things I post about in this forum section). That means I've based my opinion entirely on what I know from this topic - but it's still an opinion as good as everyone else's. It's not a fact. The only fact I need to participate here is what abortion is.

But the law is constantly changing. It isn't solid. For example, abortion and allowance of homosexuality are new rules, which were were first disallowed. Ashley, you're picking on my words, and not try to see the meaning of what I'm trying to say. Also, do you disagree with my last statement? Please tell me, where in the Bible, you would get to think otherwise?

I fully support it.

For one thing, the population of humans on planet Earth is getting out of hand so if a child doesn't have to exist, abort it~

Another thing, if the child doesn't get aborted, they're likely to live an awful life anyway and who knows, their depression could cause them to become a murderer or something.

Not so. In a few years you'll see that suddenly the population is going to decrease vastly.

 

[Midorime]

I am pro-choice.

It's not for anyone to decide, not me, not you, not even the government, about who says one can or cannot abort. This is the decision of the one who is pregnant--if she wants to abort, let her, if not, that's okay, too. It would be no different with people trying to stop her from aborting than say, someone trying to make you change your religion, forcing you to stop liking certain things you like, etc. Yes it's fine and dandy people want to 'save all life' and such but honestly? People need to keep to their own business.

Also, some of us are not fortunate enough to have the tools to prevent pregnancy unless we completely abstain. For example I am allergic to pretty much all forms of birth control in both rubber form and the copper paraguard. And I cannot take hormones due to my medications for my mood/personality disorders, which in and of themselves, to conceive while taking them I would end up with a child that would have mental or birth defects. And yet despite all this, doctors refuse to sterilize me. (I don't want to bear children due to aforementioned disorders, i am not stable enough to care for children for that alone, but including other factors such as financial and situational, same thing. I also do not even like children.) So i have to completely abstain. I'm sure you can all imagine how my relationships end up going. Yeah, no relationships at all.

Some people have legit reasons to do what they do. Some do not. Regardless, it's no one's business but their own and no one has the right to infringe upon that.